Welcome to No Compromise Radio, a ministry coming to you from Bethlehem Bible Church in West Boylston. No Compromise Radio is a program dedicated to the ongoing proclamation of Jesus Christ, based on the theme in Galatians 2, verse 5, where the Apostle Paul said, “But we did not yield in subjection to them for even an hour, so that the truth of the gospel would remain with you.” In short, if you like smooth, watered-down words to make you simply feel good, this show isn’t for you. By purpose, we are first biblical, but we can also be controversial. Stay tuned for the next 25 minutes as we’re called by the divine trumpet to summon the troops for the honor and glory of her King.
Here’s our host, Pastor Mike Abendroth. Welcome to No Compromise Radio Ministry. My name is Mike Abendroth, and our tagline is always biblical, always provocative, always in that order. And today’s no different, except we have an interview with Fred Zaspel. Fred is not in the studio, but he’s online with us. Fred, I so appreciate your ministry and what the Lord has done through you. Welcome to No Compromise Radio Ministry.
“Thanks. Pleasure to be with you.”
Fred, I first was introduced to your ministry probably over 20 years ago, and the Internet was first really coming alive through carriers like AOL and other places, and I would read your series on Calvinism and especially the Charismatics. When did you write those articles for the online Internet distribution on the Charismatics?
“Oh man, you’re making me feel old. I don’t know, that’s got to be—well, I wrote the stuff on the gifts. That’s got to be near 30 years ago.”
Now, Fred is the pastor of the Reformed Baptist Church in Franconia, Pennsylvania, and professor of theology at Calvary Baptist Seminary in Pennsylvania as well. Fred, have you changed your views on the spiritual gifts and the charismatic issues from 30 years ago?
Soft Cessationism
“Well, I’ve probably softened a little. When I wrote those things, I was a bit harder of a cessationist. I call myself a soft cessationist now.”
Okay, well, could you describe what a soft cessationist is?
“Well, the bottom line is, I think the position that I outlined then is still what I hold now, and I think that is that what was articulated famously by B.B. Warfield and before him, people like Edwards and Owen and Calvin and others, and that is that the miraculous gifts were tied in an important way to the apostolic community. I think that’s right, and I still hold to that. And so, because of that, they’re temporary, temporarily given to the Church. However, I don’t know that I can say that that was the only reason it was given to the Church, that it was given only for those purposes at that time, and I don’t see anything in the New Testament that precludes the allowance of a supernatural gift being given on occasion today. Now, having said that, I’ve got to tell you, I don’t see it. And so, I still call myself a cessationist. I just call myself a soft one.”
Well, Fred, speaking of Warfield, and of course you’ve written on the theology of B.B. Warfield, a great book published by Crossway, summarizing the works of B.B. Warfield, and another book on the Christian life, Warfield on the Christian Life. I was glad that you put Warfield’s mysticism reference in the book early on, and Warfield will talk about there are just two religions. One religion coming from outside of us, of divine origin, extra nos, you know, from outside, and another from within, a product of human thought and conscience and consciousness. How does that work now with your view of soft cessationism? Will Warfield withstand your view?
“Yeah, I don’t think I’ve really moved that far from it. I’ve just left the door open for exceptional cases. Now, I don’t know that he would have said that. So in that sense, I’ve gone beyond him. And I certainly wouldn’t allow for any new teaching coming from anywhere. I think in that sense, the canon’s closed, the revelation has ceased, in terms of that kind of thing that you just mentioned. So in terms of the contrast between mysticism and revelatory religion, I would certainly stand in the same place, and wouldn’t want to open that door.”
Amen. Well, Fred, I’ve so appreciated your detailed exegetical work, your high view of God in theology, and I think both of those have now helped you with your new ministry, Books at a Glance. Tell our listeners what Books at a Glance would be and why they could benefit.
Books at a Glance
“Yeah, thanks. Books at a Glance, by the way, it’s www.booksataglance.com. It’s a new ministry that my son and I have launched, and the purpose of it is to keep Christian readers informed and up-to-date about particularly new Christian publications. And so we feature book reviews, author interviews, and at the heart of the service is book summaries for the memberships that we have. For the members that join, we give them a weekly summary, so every week they get a seven to ten page summary of a new book that’s out so they can keep up in that way. And that way it’s a thorough tracking of the book and its argument, chapter by chapter, outlining and tracing out the argument. So we have book summaries, author interviews, and book reviews, and then other things book related to keep people up to date.”
Now, Fred, I think you can get a free 30 day trial, is that correct?
“Yeah, that’s right. You go there today and you can sign up for a free 30 days, no obligation. Uh… quit whenever you like, just test it out free for thirty days. You get full access and no obligation at all.”
Well, some of our listeners would be familiar with the book review editors like James Hamilton and Michael Haykin and Fred. When I think of Books at a Glance, I think you basically took Warfield’s works and then you condense them, not to seven or 10 pages, but you condense them into The Theology of B.B. Warfield. So we didn’t have to read those 10 volumes. We just read about 550 pages. So I thank you for that.
“Yeah, that’s about the size of it. Although I, I do hope some will continue to read Warfield himself, but yeah, that was the idea. And I suppose Books at a Glance has come, in some respects, as a result of the work with Warfield, because that’s what I did. I took the 15 or 20,000 pages that he wrote, and I tried to gel together all that he wrote on each given subject and topic of doctrine, and put it into one volume. That’s what we do at Books at a Glance, only with one book at a time.”
Fred, you start off the book with a Warfield quote, that Christianity has, from the beginning, ever come to men as the rational religion, making its appeal primarily to the intellect. Tell our listeners the role of the intellect in the Christian life and in spiritual disciplines, and tell us, do feelings and emotions have any part in the Christian life, and why?
The Role of the Intellect
“Yeah, that’s a great question, and in fact, Warfield has been criticized for that statement that you quote. Many in the last century, since he said it, have portrayed Warfield as a pure rationalist and things like that, but I think it’s a misunderstanding. His point is that, as you mentioned earlier, the distinctive of Christianity is that it is a revealed religion, and he insists on that over and again. At bottom, this is what sets Christianity apart from all other religions, that God has spoken, he has revealed himself to us. That means, ultimately, he has revealed himself in the Scriptures. Christianity is a revealed religion. That means, in turn, that the Church, primarily above everything else, has a message to proclaim. It has a message to proclaim, and it says, this is from God to you. And in that sense, then, it appeals to the mind. You must understand. And so when he says, reason your way, Christianity must reason its way, and so on, that’s what he means, proclaiming this message that’s been entrusted to us to proclaim. He in no way would downplay the role of emotions in terms of its involvement in worship and all of that. His point is, where we meet is with an understanding of this message that we have to proclaim.”
Fred, if people wanted to read Warfield on Christ Jesus, his person and his work, any particular part of his works there that you would direct them to?
“Oh yeah, I think one of his great works is a small paperback book—now it’s small size, but it’s thick—but it’s called The Lord of Glory, and it’s published now by Solid Ground Books. He goes through the New Testament, book by book through the synoptics and then through John and Acts and the epistles and through the whole New Testament to uncover all the ways in which the biblical writers reflect an understanding of Jesus as divine. And the bottom line of the whole book is to show that virtually every line—and he says it this way—virtually every line of the New Testament is written with the presupposition that Jesus is God come in the flesh. It’s just a marvelous, marvelous work. I’d recommend that to anyone. It’s very accessible for the average reader, for someone who hasn’t had any seminary education. It’s very accessible for them, and yet at the same time, it’s very worthwhile reading for the professor in the seminary. It’s an excellent, excellent book.”
We’re talking today to Fred Zaspel on No Compromise Radio. Fred, we both know that the Word of God, as it’s activated by the Spirit of God, changes people and conforms them into Christ’s image. Tell us a little bit about Warfield and how he loved his wife. It was a work of God, of course, in his life. You say in your book, that, or you quote in your book, he had only two interests in his life, his work and Mrs. Warfield. Just how practical is a good theological viewpoint?
“Well, we don’t have a lot of information personally about their relationship together. He doesn’t talk about it in any of his publications. All that we have is from their correspondence that’s preserved, and in fact we don’t even have all of that. Uh… some of the correspondence that he had, a whole swath of it, uh… was destroyed in a flood into the basement where it was kept for a while and uh… some of it was burned by a relative not knowing how important the stuff was, and some terrible stories that way. But all we have is some correspondence both of his and hers, and it does seem that they spent their evenings together. He would, it seems, uh… be studying, working toward writing and whatnot. She would be reading and writing some correspondence and they would converse and share on both of those fronts. Her interest and his, she was a very educated woman and she was able to speak with interest on a whole measure of things. But it seems that they spent their evenings together, enjoyed each other’s company quite a bit. But beyond that, we don’t have a whole lot.”
Fred, you asked earlier about the role of the mind in sanctification as well, I think, and I don’t think I addressed that. With Warfield, yes, this is a revealed religion and so it appeals to the mind in that sense, but it’s not just in terms of what we call evangelism, but in terms of the Christian life and the growing in the Christian life. It is always, always, always fostered by a new and fresh and deeper acquaintance with the teaching of the Word of God, and in particular a fresh acquaintance with the gospel and the blessings of the gospel that we enjoy in Christ. And there is in Warfield just a continual focus and feasting on the gospel as it’s been revealed in Christ, and he has this remarkable habit of referring to Jesus in just endearing terms. And he loves to speak of the adoring gaze that we have of Jesus in the gospels and things like that. We view Him, we see Him, our hearts are taken up with Him, and this is pretty much the essence of the Christian life for him, is a heart and a mind that’s taken up with and continually growing an understanding of who Christ is and what He has done for us.
Fred, this will be a difficult question, but I know you’ll be able to give us some insight. If anyone could answer it, you could. If Warfield were alive today and he saw things like the Gospel Coalition, would he be a member of the Gospel Coalition? Would he take part? What part would he like? Would he dislike some of it? What would be his assessment, do you think?
A Theological Army of One
“Well, the Gospel Coalition doesn’t have a membership as such, so no, he wouldn’t be a member. There is no membership. But at the same time, yeah, he would be very much in favor of it, I think. And Warfield talks often of the centrality of the gospel, that Christianity is focused on, and its whole reason for being is to talk about and to tell about the work of Jesus Christ. The reason Christianity is in the world is to proclaim this gospel of Christ and the gospel of reconciliation in Him. And he’s very explicit. The further we get away from that, the more that that central message of God reconciling man to himself in Christ and through his cross—the further we get away from that, whether it is denied by the liberals or ignored by the conservatives, the further we get away from it, the more Christianity itself has slipped out of our grasp. And he would be, I think, very enthusiastic in supporting the Gospel Coalition in that sense, that there is a gospel-centeredness that’s refreshing, and that is reflected in Warfield’s work everywhere.”
Fred, when I read your book, Warfield on the Christian Life: Living in Light of the Gospel, maybe my favorite sentence that you write—it’s a very short sentence, but I love the context as Warfield is standing for the truth of God and for the centrality of Christ Jesus—you said, “He was a theological army of one.” What could our listeners learn from—I think of Jude, of course, contending for the faith and the honor and glory of Jesus? So often in evangelicalism, we talk about zeal instead of being jealous, that someone who is zealous for the Lord versus Phinehas in Numbers 25, he had a jealousy for the Lord’s glory. People say we’re supposed to be lovers, not fighters. How did the Lord use Warfield to help protect the truths of Christianity that we hold so dearly?
“Well, I think you’ve shaped it well. His heart was just passionate. It was just hot for Christ. It was just passionate for the things of God because he had a deep sense in his own heart, a deep sense of rescue, that he was a sinner rescued by divine grace through a supernatural Savior, and the work of the cross, and this just pervades all of his thinking, and it has so gripped him that he was passionate about defending the faith. And when I say he’s an army of one, I’d forgotten I made that statement, by the way, but when I say that, what I mean is he was uniquely equipped. There were many men in his day fighting the same battles that he was fighting, and he was all for them, and they were all for him. This was a day when liberalism was making its upsurge, and uh… making it show. And what distinguished Warfield among all of the others who fought the same battles—whether it’s Spurgeon or James Orr or Andrew Bonar, whoever—uh… while they all would have been in agreement, nobody, nobody—and everybody recognizes—nobody was so well equipped, so thoroughly and broadly equipped and so deeply learned as Warfield. And so when he stepped into the arena, whatever the particular pointed issue was, whether it’s in terms of systematic theology, or biblical history, or biblical exegesis, or whatever, when he stepped into that arena, he owned it, and everybody knew it. And he could take comers from all quarters, and he was just widely and deeply equipped like no one else was. And there was a sense in his day by scholars of that day, even, a recognition that he was there. And one of the things I did in my research for Warfield is spent a long time just going through old journals from that day, theological journals, and finding references to Warfield. And you get this sense from other scholars in that day that they did their writing feeling that he was watching over their shoulder. And he had an immense presence, and everyone knew that this was a force to be reckoned with. And it was a force for Christ that was passionate and thoroughly informed.”
Fred, when I was reading about his youthful years, when he was 16, you talk about how some of his friends would mimic him in his own Southern drawl and call him “Wofield,” and then he would be getting in fistfights, and so then the Lord changes him and he gets in theological fistfights instead.
“Yeah, the fistfight was actually an interesting thing in a couple of ways. One, it was at Princeton College, not at the seminary, it was at the college. And he was a young student there. And one of the things that’s interesting about that is that his father—no, his grandfather—had been expelled from the school for the very same offense a generation earlier. But the particular fight that he was in that we know about was actually his fault, it seems. He was the instigator. I think it was a Sunday afternoon lecture at Miller Chapel there at Princeton. And while the sermon is going on, he drew a caricature, it seems, of one of his friends. And of course, we don’t have a picture. We don’t have it preserved or anything. But evidently, it wasn’t very flattering. It was kind of funny. And so he drew this thing and started showing it around while they’re sitting there during chapel. And people are snickering. And evidently, it humiliated his friend. And so when they stepped outside of chapel after the service was over, they settled it like men and had a fist fight.”
Well, we live in such a day and age these days, Fred, where I just think of songs like “Rise Up, O Man of God” and “Soldiers of Christ, Arise.” It’s almost a negative thing where we don’t want to fight, we want to get along with everyone, and we don’t want to lead with our chins, and we want to be kind, and we have different definitions of love. I love it when you discuss in your book that Warfield met the wife of Seminary President J. Ross Stevenson while walking down the Princeton Street. She said, “Dr. Warfield, I hear there’s going to be trouble at the General Assembly. Do let us pray for peace.” Warfield replies, “I am praying that if they do not do what is right, there may be a mighty battle.” Tell us some about the battles in Christianity from creeds back in the old days to confessions. This is a God who’s worth fighting for, right?
“Well, his point, yes. And his point was that the issues that were being raised in his day, the anti-supernaturalism of the day, the wholesale denial of external revelation and authoritative revelation, external authority, and all of that became brought to bear on particular doctrines in the Church, and what he saw was not just this or that doctrine failing to be accepted in the minds of people, but what he saw was its effects on the Gospel, and that Christianity itself was in the balance of this. Now, he didn’t actually fear that Christianity would fail, and he’s big on that point. He has a robust faith of the success of Christianity and the success of the Gospel, but at the same time, the issues were not issues to be ignored. Because they were so vital and so important, yeah, he wanted to give everything he had to it. So you have a man who’s academically equipped like no one else around, and yet with a heart just as big as his mind, and just uniquely equipped in that way. And reading him, on the one hand, he’s known as the greatest scholar of the day and all of that, but at the same time, what’s often missed about him, until you’ve read him yourself, you recognize that this man was just with a warm heart for Christ, and he really was fighting for the gospel.”
Fred, he wrote a lot about the passions that Christ had, Christ’s feelings. I keep thinking these are linked together because, of course, Jesus, when he would meet a sinner, someone who knew they had no righteousness, he was so kind, he was so gentle, he was a friend of sinners, and people would criticize him for eating with gluttons and drinking and all these other things. But when he met someone who was defaming God’s Word, there was going to be a confrontation. Do you think Warfield’s study of the Passion of Christ—I don’t mean the Passion, capital P, but the emotions of Christ—had anything to do with this?
The Emotional Life of Our Lord
“Well, I think he did pick up on it. It is reflected in a few places in his writings, too. And, of course, he has the one famous article on the emotional life of our Lord, which is just unprecedented in Christian literature. It’s a unique study still today, where he examines the emotions of Jesus as it’s reflected in the Gospels. But yeah, I think that was an important point for Warfield, that he recognized that Jesus was not just a passionate man, but was a compassionate man with regard to the people he had come to save. And so he has a famous passage describing the emotional state of Jesus at the tomb of Lazarus, where on the one hand he’s compassionate and he cries with sympathy for those who are weeping, and at the same time he’s enraged and he’s angry with the enemy that has brought this whole disaster on the situation, that this death is something that’s abnormal, it’s something that’s been imposed on humanity by the adversary, and he comes with rage and anger in his heart against the adversary and with a heart full of compassion for those whom he loves. Also Warfield will point out the compassion that he has for the outcast and for the disadvantaged, and yeah, I think Warfield picked up on it.”
Well, when Warfield was preaching the sermon that you talk about in your book for a friend and colleague at Princeton, Charles Aiken, he writes this word of encouragement, while yet our—and again, this is a funeral message—”While yet our farewell to them on this side of the separating gulf was sounding in their ears, the glad hail of their Lord was welcoming them there.” What a great line. What a great… I love it.
“Yeah, I was thinking as my mom was dying and she was closing her eyes and breathing those last breaths, closing her eyes, and then when she would open them again on the other side to see the blazing glory of Christ Jesus, the Lamb standing as the slain, and it just is—it’s breathtaking.”
“Yep, it is.”
Fred, we only have about 30 to 60 seconds left. If our readers want to get a copy of your book, Warfield on the Christian Life, they just go to Amazon, or do you have a special website for your church where people can order it, or how can they get your book?
“Yeah, you can go to Amazon to get it, and also with Warfield on the Christian Life, that book was written for the layman, for a first acquaintance with Warfield, and if you go to Crossway, the publisher, they also have their study guide to go with the book, and the study guide is free. You can download it from the website.”
Fred, I’m thinking about all the great theologians. It seems like they just go by the initials of their first name and middle name. So I was thinking about M.L. Abendroth, but it just doesn’t have the same ring as B.B. Warfield. F.G. Zaspel. In his own day, the initials B.B.W., after a book review, carried a lot of weight. Fred can be reached at Books at a Glance, his ministry there, or you can go to his church website, Reformed Baptist Church of Franconia, Pennsylvania. Fred, thank you so much for your ministry, and again, you’ve affected me for 25 years with your writings about Christ and His Word, and No Compromise Radio thanks you very much.
“Thanks so much, Mike, I appreciate it.”
Please come and join us. Our service times are Sunday morning at 10:15 and in the evening at 6:00. We’re right on Route 110 in West Boylston. You can check us out online at bbchurch.org or by phone at 508-835-3400. The thoughts and opinions expressed on No Compromise Radio do not necessarily reflect those of WVNE, its staff or management.