Church: Reformed Baptist Church of Franconia | Text: — | Date: June 25, 2011 | Speaker: Fred Zaspel

Gospel Connection to Discipline

All right. Let me ask a question related to just the purpose of it, Fred. Is discipline and establishing authority and getting obedience just about peace in the home and teaching morals and having good little kids? Or does it have a… a real and necessary gospel connection to it? Is this about saving our kids?

It is. It’s both. When the Bible tells us this cleanses away evil, we need to take that very seriously. This is part of bringing our children into submission: to submission to us, submission to God, learning not to be so independent that they think they’re on their own, that they’re the authority unto themselves. So it’s all of the above. What was I going to say? I had a thought and lost it. It was an intelligent one, too. I always forget those.

Is it something like Sinai serves the purpose for Israel? Is it a schoolmaster that drives them to Christ? I don’t know. That could be part of the logic of it. I’ve not thought it through in that connection, so I’m not willing to say, ready to say yes or no on that. But the point is it is effective in cleansing away evil. It is effective in bringing about a submissive heart, and that’s important for their conversion.

Breaking the Will vs. Breaking the Spirit

That’s what I was going to say. The psychologist will warn you that spanking will crush your children, and you don’t want to crush your children; you don’t want to break their spirit. Sometimes they will say you don’t want to break their will. And the distinction I made years ago was this—and we can quibble about the terminology, I’m not really concerned about that—the distinction I made was this: I do want to break their will. That’s exactly what I want to do. It’s exactly what I’m after. But I don’t want to break their spirit. You understand the difference I’m making? If you can come up with better terminology, that’s fine with me. But you understand the distinction I’m making. I don’t want to crush them. I want them to be their own person. But I’m determined to break their will. I’m determined to do that. They have to realize that dad’s will is supreme, not theirs. It’s very important for them.

Questions and Answers: Spankable Issues

Okay, time for me to play Phil Donahue. Who has a question?

Melissa: Could you be more specific on spankable issues? Like you had talked about dinnertime or leaving a place and complaining, things that are spankable versus non-spankable, you know, tantrums on the ground, things like that.

I’m sorry, I’m not hearing all that you’re saying. I forgot to put my hearing aid in. Now I’m all here. Okay. I’m sorry.

Melissa: Spankable issues versus non-spankable. Like the mealtime things, the leaving when they’re crying, the tantrums, like times when you do spank.

Well, there are certain offenses. That’s a good question. Certain offenses are just absolutely capital offenses. You will not sass your mother. You will not show disrespect. You will not disobey. Does that necessarily mean that on every given instance of it, there must be a spanking? Probably not. But they’ve got to know that that offense is going to get a spanking. Now, if I relent on one of them because I’m merciful, well, I can get by with that occasionally. But they’ve got to know that certain offenses are capital offenses. That’s just it. You’re going to get a spanking for that. They’ve got to know the boundaries, and that’s only fair to them. They’ve got to know the boundaries.

Short of that, there are other issues that, you know, it’s on the spectrum. Yeah, that deserves a spanking, but it doesn’t mean it has to be every time. Is spilling their milk a spankable offense? No, it’s not. If they’re spilling it every day at dinner, they might need a gentle reminder. Now, that’s not going to be the same spanking they got for disobedience. They might need some kind of reminder, and it’s amazing how it’ll work. And it all plays into this whole spectrum of things.

The bottom line issue is obey and honor your parents. Within that, there’s a whole range of things that they must and must not do. And playing it out is, no, not everyone gets spanked every time. But they’ve got to know that any offense that is disrespectful or disobedient is deserving of spanking.

Not eating a meal? It could become that. It sure could. Yeah, it sure could become that. Most of the time, if you’ve established that—and the key here, critical to this, is starting when they’re very young. Both my kids got spankings. Gina, I said, was the stronger-willed one, and she got more, but they hardly remember a one. They remember some, but they have very few memories of spankings because it was taken care of young. You’ve got to start young. That’s their moldable years. The first five years is when they’re most moldable. And you get the authority of your word established by then, then the eating thing becomes easier to deal with. But yeah, it could become that because it comes down to a matter of obedience. Usually, what would work is something like, “You’re going to eat your peas. Oh, you don’t like that? Well, here, have some more. You’re going to eat those. And you’re not going to get up from the table until you eat.” Try that. But it could come to something more serious. There’s flexibility in that. You’ve got to use your own judgment. You don’t want to frustrate the child by being inconsistent. But at the same time, you can be lenient at times as long as you’re not frustrating them. Anyone else?

Handling Disobedience in Public

Question: Do you have any advice for when you’re in public and there is a disobedience?

I’m sorry, I can’t hear.

Question: In public, when they are disobedient and you know it deserves a spanking, how do you practically handle that? I mean, how long do you run home and spank them, or do you keep reminding them they’re having a spanking when they get home?

Yeah. It’s a judgment call, and it varies with the age of the child and how much they’re able to remember. I gave an illustration earlier about my daughter when, you know, “Say hi to the lady,” and she wouldn’t say it. Gina was preschool at the time, very young, very young—and so young that if Kim had just gotten in the car and taken her home, by the time he got there, Gina would have lost the connection and the spanking would have been for nothing. It would have just frustrated her. So, Kim got in the car and told her, “You didn’t obey Mommy, did you? And the whole way home, because you didn’t obey Mommy, you have to get a spanking.” And they pulled in the driveway, and Gina starts crying. Well, you know she’s getting the connection. It might be that you can’t do it. I wouldn’t jeopardize things by doing it in public. I just wouldn’t. But I would think of whatever creative way you can to keep the connection alive. And when you get home, we’re going to have to have a spanking, something like that.

The Fun Factor

Question: So I like the factor that you said about the fun thing. We have two twin boys that are 14 years old. And neither me or Denny enjoy video games. So we really need some help of, you know, what can be the fun factor at this age?

Age 14, it might be sports. It might be going to the water. It’s been too long since my kids were 14. I don’t think that well anymore in those terms. It might mean you should play some video games. I’m not big on video games either, and in fact, too much of it just isn’t good for them. Teach them games, teach them catch out in the backyard; maybe it’s going for a walk, maybe it’s learning to hike together as a family. Just find things like that. I’m sure there are some kinds of attractions around. Some of them may cost money, but things like it. You want them to remember that you had fun together. And it doesn’t have to be always uproarious laughter, but you enjoyed each other’s company and had fun. That’s just immensely important for a child’s development. Dad and mom loved me, and we had fun together.

Question: When you first talked about that yesterday, I thought that’s what you meant. I thought you were talking about fun, not so much in an event context, a trip context, a this-activity context.

It’s all of the above. We’d play with the ball, we’d wrestle, we’d play hide and seek when they’re young—things that are easier when they’re little. When they’re older, you’ve got to find things that they like. When my kids got older… well, Gina got sick. At some point, she’d been homebound for a long time, so I wasn’t able to do as much with her. But with Jimmy, when he got old enough, we got jet skis. And we went to the ocean. He’s almost 25 now. And he and I still love doing that. In fact, I’m still his favorite jet ski partner. We each get on our jet ski, and we head to the ocean. We ride the waves and jump the waves. And he drives like a maniac, and I drive like an old man. But we have lots of fun. Now, that’s kind of pricey. And in fact, he paid for the jet skis more than I did. But find some way of having fun. Hiking is a big thing with some. I’m sorry. I’m coming up pretty short here. But I think what you said… find somebody with a 14-year-old and talk to them.

I think you’d emphasize the atmosphere, right? I mean, you also talked about an atmosphere of love. So rather than think of love just in terms of gift-giving or trip-taking, and fun in those terms as well, just think of the atmosphere. Lots of attention given to your kids—lots of attention, interest. And that will involve games. We have a tradition at our house. Every breakfast, whoever’s sitting there, we play a card game. We’ll play Rummy 500 or Crazy Eights or something, and then we go on for the day. Or if it’s at lunchtime, perhaps, we’ll do it. It’s kind of a fun tradition. We all enjoy it. Find little things like that that have an atmosphere of being together and enjoying one another’s company.

OK. Let’s take another question. OK. Back to you.

Catching Up on Discipline

Question: I’m going to be honest here and say we’ve very inconsistently applied what we knew we should have been doing, and so we have a two-year-old through 11-year-old. Can you give me some ideas for sort of catching up? Well, what do we do with the fact that we’ve got some that I’m seeing some hard-heartedness in some of the older ones?

Okay, you’re behind the game. Acknowledge it. And what I would start with is sit down with the children and I’d explain it all to them. Say, “Now look, here’s what God requires of you. Here’s what God requires of us.” And you might even—it would be powerfully effective for them to hear you say, “We’re sorry. We haven’t done this part of it as faithfully as we should have. And we were wrong. But we’re going to honor God the best we can and we’re going to pick up on this. Now what that means is for you…” and you have to explain to them that they’ve been getting by with things or you’ve not done this, but today’s a new day. And we’re going to start doing this. We will not allow this anymore.

And whatever the issues are that you’re facing, you know, “Johnny, we’re not going to allow that anymore. You just can’t do it. Please don’t make me spank you for it, but we will.” And explain, lay it out to them. That way you don’t frustrate them. You’ve got to make plain what the game plan is and then follow through with it. And that’s the, I think that’s the best. And then take all of this that you know and think it through carefully with reference to each of your children in terms of what should be allowed, what isn’t, where you’re behind, what you should be doing, whatever, and start putting it into practice. If not at the moment, at least ahead of time and after, you’re going to have some teaching that needs to be done. I don’t think once and done is going to be enough. You have to explain it to them.

In fact, we did that with our kids all the time they were growing up. We explained to them in the peaceful moments, you know, when there wasn’t a problem. We explained to them what discipline was all about, why we did it. “You understand that Dad and Mom spank you because we love you?” What kind of sense does that make? Well, it worked, you know, and so we explain it. “We spank you, it does work, doesn’t it?” “Yeah.” And well, that’s why we do it. We want you to have a right kind of a life that pleases God, and that’s what we’re after. And we explain why you’re doing it and God says this and that’s why we’re doing it, and it works.

I remember one time we’re in the grocery store and Jimmy, he’s just a little kid. And another kid in the store was throwing a temper tantrum. His mother was just having a fit dealing with the boy and Jimmy says, “He needs more spankings.” Yes, we’re getting somewhere. But you got to teach them, you got to teach them. Teaching them through the Word, your word, is a very, very important part of it. By the way, the questions do not have to be always only on discipline—any of what we’ve covered in religious instruction or whatever.

Self-Suspicion in Discipline

Question: Number one question. We are parents-to-be, Lord willing, and we’re doing some reading, and we get this sense in some of the reading that we should be pretty self-suspicious as we discipline our children. So could you address the appropriateness, maybe theologically, practically, of self-suspicion, and if it’s being overemphasized or underemphasized in a lot of the new literature?

What do you mean by self-suspicious?

Question: Just what’s my heart doing while I’m angry? What’s my heart? Is there sin involved in my discipline? That kind of thing, and how we approach it. The sense we’re getting is you should behave the same toward your child with self-suspicion as you do toward maybe your spouse. Because if we’re having a disagreement about something, I should be—and I would agree with that—I should be very self-suspicious and humble because she’s a believer, because she’s my equal, but is it different with children?

All right, I think there’s obviously a point in all of that that’s true, but I think that’s been overplayed in some of the current literature. To the point of, “You should never spank your children when you’re angry.” You’re told that. I don’t think my children ever got spanked when I wasn’t angry. Part of the punishment was to see me angry. Now, one thing they’re getting at is, one, you don’t spank simply out of anger and, two, you’re not out of control. But I’m not at all saying when I spank my children that I’m sinless. I’m saying what they did was wrong and they’re getting the punishment. And I want them frankly to see that I’m angry. I want them to know that disobedience incurs dad’s anger. Now, dad is not spanking simply out of anger; they know that. And I’m not out of control; they know that. But I wouldn’t be overly suspicious at that point, any more than you normally should be suspicious of your own heart and all of that. But am I answering where you are?

Question: Yeah, that’s helpful, that’s helpful.

Okay. I think that for all of the generations of Christians that have preceded us, they never, so far as I’m aware of, never had some of the stuff that we are told today that we must do. Don’t spank when you’re angry. Make sure you use your Bible. Give them the gospel when you’re spanking them. I don’t know that any of them ever did that. But we’ve gotten to this touchy-feely generation, and now all of a sudden, all of this is required of us. And it seems to me to be backing off of the clarity of the moment. And I think it’s very important. Keep in mind, this is an atmosphere of love, overwhelming kind of love and fun and all the rest of it. When it comes to the moment, it’s time for spanking. It should be decisive.

Fred, on that note, can you clarify what you meant when you said, “You throw a fit, I’ll throw a bigger fit”?

Yeah.

Can you demonstrate?

I want them, pardon?

Will you demonstrate?

Only if you throw the fit, Ryan. I was very angry and I made as though I was angrier than I was. I wanted her to be very afraid when she threw that tantrum that dad was throwing a bigger one. And it worked. I want them to see the anger of it. I think that was good. Actually, I got that philosophy from my dad. I don’t remember his ever doing that but I remember his saying, “My philosophy always was: you throw a temper tantrum, I throw a bigger one.” I thought that made sense. Actually, she didn’t get spanked that hard that time, but I think she might have thought she was. I’ve heard you tell that story before and say, “She thought I was out of control; I wasn’t.” So you weren’t out of control, you’ve thrown a fit. She, yeah. It’s not out of control, right? Right, right, I wasn’t literally throwing a fit, but she might have wondered.

Repentance and Alternative Discipline

Question: How do you handle self-reported acts of disobedience with repentance? “Hey, Daddy, you know what?”

Oh, I wouldn’t spank that. Okay. If the repentance is sincere, they’re off the hook. If they’ve beat me to that and they come and they’re truly repentant, I have a hard time imagining a situation where I would still spank them if it’s truly repentant. That’s what we’re after is the honest repentance. Now, if it becomes a pattern, you got to suspect somewhere along the line that they’re playing you. But no, I’m not eager to spank. I’m eager for repentance. If I see that, I’m happy.

Question: I have a question for you. How do you feel about—not in the place of spankings or just to supplement them, but as an adjunct to discipline—the loss of a privilege or something treasured to the child? Do you feel like that has any place?

Sure. All of that comes into grounding them, taking away privileges, and especially as they get older. I was talking to a man recently in the church, and it was the one I mentioned earlier with the 16-year-old. And his dad said something to the effect of, he says, “Well, you know, I’ve considered spanking, but…” “Spanking?” I said, and I named his son. “He’s six foot four, he’s 220 pounds, and you’re going to spank him?” You know, it’s just… it’s of limited value at best. It’s going to probably have a reverse effect. He was 16 and that big, and I said, “What does he like to do?” He said, “What do you mean?” I said, “What does he like in life?” “Well, he likes baseball. He’s on a baseball team. He loves to watch the Phillies.”

There you are. If you’ve got him, what hurts? I said, their problem was defiance of his mother. I said, I would tell him, “You defy my wife, you defy your mother. In this home, you’re lucky if I’m going to feed you a meal. You will get no privileges whatsoever when you treat your mother that way. You want to go to Little League? Forget it. I’m not taking you. You want to watch the Phillies? No. The television is not on this evening. You want to fix that, you start treating your mother better.” It’s that easy. So yeah, you can do lots of those things.

Question: So how old is too old to spank? Pardon? How old is too old to spank?

Too old for what? Spanking? Yeah. That’s probably relative, but certainly by the time you’re getting to the teen years, it’s getting more difficult. I remember the last time my mother tried to spank me. Yeah. I think I was 13, something like that, and she was frustrated at something I was doing. I forget what it was, but she was frustrated with me. “All right, that’s it. Get your belt.” And I gave her my belt. We have a great relationship. We had one then, too. I got my belt and I gave it to her. “Mom, do you really think you’re going to hurt me?” And she started laughing and that was that. She still laughs about that.

Reconciling with the Child

Question: I have a question that is going to tie into some books that probably a lot of parents here have read and some guidance that we’ve gotten about reconciling with your child and keeping a close… I guess I just feel like I’ve been taught to keep that closeness during the discipline. And when you said kind of leaning over the bed versus on your lap, and then you even said administer the spank and send them to their room until they’re done crying and then they come back and reconcile, I’m a bit confused, I guess, in what you’re saying versus what I thought.

I think a lot of that is needless. I think it’s making more of an issue where there isn’t one. When it comes to spanking, I want to spank them in the most convenient way possible. I’m not worried about the psychology of cuddling them at that point. Spank them. That’s the issue. That’s the issue. And I don’t think you can do that with them over your knees. They’re tiny, I suppose, but, you know, generally, it’s just not a concern of mine, and I don’t think it needs to be.

I want the discipline to be within an atmosphere of overwhelming, prevailing love. I keep going back to that because I don’t want you to get a one-sided picture of discipline, especially for those of you who weren’t here last evening when we talked about an atmosphere of love in the home. If you don’t have that, the discipline is not going to be effective. If I have that established in place where our home is marked by love and fun all the time, all the time, all the time—well, I don’t have to worry about questions like that when it comes time to spanking. It’s just not a concern.

Fred, I think something that happens frequently is families are trying to keep this atmosphere of peace, love, acceptance, but discipline isn’t discipline enough that Mom and Dad get very frustrated. Does that make sense? So there’s a growing frustration and that becomes the tenor of the home because discipline wasn’t discipline. And I know we’ve made that mistake before in the past, and I know that there are great books that really emphasize sort of that.

You mean the parents are frustrated because the children are not well enough disciplined?

Right, right. And they’re not well-disciplined because discipline hasn’t been discipline. Discipline has been this mingling of discipline and gentle, soft relationship stuff. And I would, in our home now, what we say is, you know, discipline is discipline and the rest is fun and love.

Discipline is not gentle by definition. And I do think that it’s going to result in frustration because it’s not going to be as effective. So what else? That’s a good point.

Age-Appropriate Expectations

Question: I was just wondering, you said at one point not to expect your 5-year-old to behave like a 10-year-old and vice versa. I have a 3-year-old, so I know what to expect from her because I have a 5-year-old. I feel like sometimes I expect too much from my 5-year-old because I have nothing else to compare it to. How do you know what you can expect a 5-year-old to behave like?

Well, there’s no arbitrary standard that says all 5-year-olds are this. There’s no way to measure that way. It’s just that you know your child; you know what he’s capable of. And if he’s capable of behaving better than he is or being more mature than he’s acting, then you require that. It’s just an assessment of the child himself, of his personality, your home environment, all the rest of it. He can be doing better than he is.

Let me go here while I’m here. Just really quick.

Question: You had spoken last night about a six-year-old should be able to sit in a service with his family. Right. If he says he can’t…

Well, you may have some catching up to do. We started at age two with Jimmy. We started Gina, I think, at age four. She was more difficult. She’s a wiggle worm, just a wiggle worm. In fact, some of the training we did for Gina at home in preparation for church was, I would say, “Okay, Gina, come to the living room.” She’d come in. I’d just sit on the couch. She’s just a wiggle worm; you can’t believe it. It’s like she got her toe plugged into the electric socket or something. And I would say, “I want you to sit there on the couch for 30 seconds without moving a muscle. You can sit stiff. You can relax. I don’t care what you do. Just sit still. Don’t move a muscle for 30 seconds. Ready? Go.” It was the hardest thing on earth for her. “Oh, got to start over. 30 seconds.” That was part of her training. We would laugh, and it would be fun. But it was part of her training.

It might be that it’s indicative of a lack of disciplinary problems in other respects as well—spankings and whatnot. And so if you feel like they’re not able at age six and you feel like they should be—and I would think at age six they certainly should be—you got to back up and say, “Okay, how do we correct it?” And again, it’s going to start with some instruction, explaining to them what you’re doing, why you’re doing it, and go from there. Family Bible reading can be good practice time. Make sure that they’re… let me get back to you. Yeah, that’s true.

Rewards, Sibling Conflicts, and Spiritual Disciplines

Question: Is rewarding obedience akin to bribing, or will it be counterproductive?

Reporting?

Question: Rewarding obedience.

Rewarding obedience, yes. I think that’s fine. But you don’t want them to think they only… you don’t want only that. You don’t want a system that says, “Okay, you’ve behaved this week, therefore you get this.” You do it because it’s right. They have to know that. But if on occasion you want to say, “You know, you kids have sure been good lately. I want to take you out for ice cream,” or whatever, show you how much we appreciate it or we love you—those things are great. Those things are great. But you don’t want it as the regular. You want them… what you want in place solidly is: “We obey because it’s right.”

Question: Occasionally, we’ll have a child that tries to defend another child when they’ve… when they deserve discipline.

A what?

Question: One of our children will try to defend the other child as we’re trying to discipline. Because we have two 14-year-old twins, and then we have an 11-year-old daughter. And so they’ll see us disciplining the 11-year-old, and all of a sudden, it becomes their business as to what’s going on.

Well, you just got to tell them, “Hey, this is not for you. This is between us. It’s time for discipline.” You just have to explain to them. “Glad you’re sympathizing with your sister and that’s neat and all that’s wonderful, but you’re out of line. You’re out of line.”

Question: Could you speak some more about family worship time as far as when kids are resistant to pray or read the Bible? Like, you don’t want to… how do you balance about… you don’t want to force them to, I don’t know, as far as spiritual disciplines.

What you want to work at is to make it normal. Make it a regular thing so it’s normal for them. And to do that, you can’t let it become burdensome. How old are your kids?

Question: Two, four, and six.

Okay. Make it more casual to begin with. Make it more centered around casual discussion, whether it’s in the car or at the dinner table. Start talking about the memory verses or the Bible story book or the sermon Sunday or whatever, and work it in, maybe gradually—maybe that would help. Make it a normal thing and then once in a while, “We’ve got a full five minutes we’re going to give to this.” And then once in a while, it might be 10. It doesn’t have to be extended forever. But work at making it a normal process of life, I think, is the best thing to do. If you can think of something better, I’m all for that, but that sounds…

All right, we’ve got about 10 more minutes. By the way, let me mention one other book that you could use. Bruce Ware, who’s a theologian at Southern Seminary, has recently written a book on theology. He teaches systematic theology at the seminary. He would go home and teach his kids that. And now he’s put all that in a book. So here’s a really good theologian who has taught his own children theology and has put that in a book to help parents teach their kids theology. You just gotta get that book. You just gotta get it. And for those of you who don’t feel like you’re capable of teaching that well, it’s all there for you. Big Truth, Small Hearts. I’m sorry? Big Truth, Small Hearts is the name of it. Young hearts. Big Truth, Young Hearts. That’s it. Is that what it is? Okay.

Oh, we’ve got one here. Okay. Okay, Megan.

Megan: I have a one-year-old, and she holds her breath, and it can be for a variety of reasons, but it can be out of defiance, like if I put her down and she doesn’t want to be put down. But if we are stern with her, she’s very, very sensitive. If we’re stern with her, then it escalates. So then the holding the breath goes longer and longer. And so I just don’t know what’s the wisest way to approach that.

I wouldn’t worry about that. She’ll breathe. She’ll breathe. I wouldn’t give in to it. I really wouldn’t. She’ll breathe. She cannot hurt herself doing that. She cannot hurt herself. She’ll breathe. And if it makes you look too frustrated, she may feel like she’s won. I’d ignore it.

Question: As far as your family caring for your children—so say you left your child with your parents, so their grandparents, or their aunt and uncle, or even close friends—what do you usually advise parents? Like, what kind of discipline do you advise your parents to tell their caretakers during that time?

I, generally speaking—generally speaking—I don’t want anybody else spanking my children. That’s my job. And I want it done right. I don’t want it too hard. I don’t want it too soft. I want it right, and that’s my job. Generally speaking, I don’t want them doing it. My parents would have been something… I didn’t live close to my parents very long at all. I can think of one time when my mother spanked Gina, but we just didn’t live with them or near them. So it wasn’t an issue. But I think my parents, because I know them so well and because I know their philosophy of it all and their understanding and how they did it, I think they would have constituted an exception because I’m good with that. But if I hadn’t felt that way, I would have said, “No, just leave it for me. You tell me.” And in our case, if I had left them at your house and you said, “Jimmy, I’m going to tell your dad when he comes and he’s going to have to spank you,” that’d have been all you needed.

Okay, two more questions. Two more up here. This gentleman in the black passed you by.

Question: With my three kids, we do like story time every night before bed. Would it be bad to group in like a family Bible time with story time?

Oh, sure, do it all. If it works, it’s great. Whatever works for you. If it’s working, great. If you can add more, great. Yeah, find what works. If it’s working, it’s a good way.

Okay, one more. Last question. Over to your right. Over to your right.

Question: I’ve got three very competitive boys that often result in physical conflict. Got any suggestions?

Yeah. Fighting siblings. That’s a tough one. There’s not a one-size-fits-all answer. My two children grew up being each other’s very best and closest friend and each other’s worst enemy. We had both. I mean, they truly were as close as any brother and sister can be. They loved each other deeply. And they would do anything for the other. But, boy, they could sure fight.

You have… they have to know it’s not going to be tolerated. At some point, it will result in a spanking if necessary. Or if they’re older, you know, whatever… whatever hits them hard. They’ve got to know it’s not going to be tolerated. I remember one time Gina and Jimmy were fighting. It was particularly bitter. And I went in there. It was in the living room. And I acted—I showed my frustration. And I scolded them. I hollered at them, by the way; that’s not bad. You raise your voice, that’s okay. Some of the books tell you that’s sinful, too. I don’t know where they got that. I scolded them very firmly. And I said, “I wish you guys would just pretend that you love one another.” Well, I got them. They both started crying. “I do love her.” “We’re not acting like it.” And try ways of appealing to their conscience like that. I wish I had a better answer for you. They’ve got to know it won’t be tolerated and you’ve got to be willing to go the distance to make sure it stops. Part of it’s going to be a matter of maturing. They’ll grow better, but you can’t let it go unchecked either. I wish I had better answers for it.